InnoVest Resource Management's Foreclosure Forum

Home Discussion Board "Hands-On" Training Title Holding Trust Speaking Schedule Store Foreclosure Fundamentals Code References 50 State Foreclosure Basics Foreclosure Glossary Foreclosure Statistics 70+ Yrs Interest Rates Fillable Forms Archived Articles Dingbat Retirement Plan Links Contact / Map About Us Home

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Forum Board ] [ FAQ ] Very Interested in Knowing Findings Posted by Mark H. on May 07, 2008 at 8:10 PM In Reply to: Re: purchased 2nd, 1st lender not interested in talking Los Angeles area posted by Heidi on May 06, 2008 at 11:59 AM Heidi, This whole issue is damned vexing, especially as I thought that the owner of a foreclosed second has the right to pay off the first deed of trust and retain the property. As I thought I would be bidding on a second deed of trust in foreclosure tomorrow (the first is not in foreclosure) I THOUGHT I'd buy the second, take possession, and pay off the first in full. Is that NOT the rule? : Dan, : Before you spend up to $2000 on an attorney, perhaps the board can help you understand your situation better and maybe help you identify the correct lists of questions for your attorney. : I for one am confused about several aspects of your situation (and the post-auction foreclosure process.) : #1 - Even if you have a deed in your name, it's not clear title. : Thus the mere existence of a senior lien implies that you don't have full ownership. : (I'm sure you are aware of this, Dan) : Still, I've never fully understood how the senior lien holders typically react : to a junior lien getting purchased at auction. : Doesn't the senior lender(s) 'typically' proceed with their foreclosure (which is usually not far in the timeline behind a junior forelcosing lien) and : when you or someone else doesn't show up at the auction with enough cash to purchase at the opening bid amount (or more if there is competition) then the property is now : 'owned' by the lender (back to bene - REO) and anyone living in the house is evicted? : If that were the case, wouldn't the lender already own this property - given the time that has elapsed since you bought the property? : Anotherwords, Dan, did the lender ever complete their foreclosure, and if not - what stage is it in? : If the Senior already owns the property, it's possible that the 100K extra could be their desired price they want and have nothing to do with actual payoff amounts. : But that doesn't make sense if your dealing with a collection agency and not an REO department. : So, it appears that the lender hasn't foreclosed yet. : If that's the case, what exactly has been happening between you and the senior lien holder all this time? : : It seems logical that a senior lien holder upon receiving : notification of the sale of a junior lien at a trustee sale : would immediately notify the junior of the payoff : amount required and a timeline for payment to avoid foreclosure. : Yet you say the house needed alot of work and that : you've moved in. : Therefore, I can only assume several months have gone by and : I don't understand why it looks like you've had such a hard time : getting them to tell you their payoff amount. : Dan, it sounds like you've had to make all the calls on : this one, so far, and that the lender did not make any effort : to contact you. Is that correct? : %% To the board members purchasing juniors at auctions: : What's been your experience in this regard? : Do senior lien holders contact you, or do you have to : pull teeth to find out how much they need to stop : them from foreclosing on you? %% : : #2 - When you say the 'amount reported as the Sr. Loan at auction' : was $100K less then the payoff amount they are telling you now, : do you know if that amount stated represented a the full payoff : at that time, or could it have possibly been the amount the lender : would list for their 'minimum opening bid.' : Minimum opening bid could be far less then amount actually owed, but usually isn't known until : moments before the senior lien actually goes to sale. : I'm asking this because it's possible that the amount you saw, : may have not been the actual payoff. : Just to be clear, also, how exactly was the amount for the : senior loan REPORTED (at what I assume is your junior auction? : If it was reported at the seniors' auction, then it's a little : too late to worry about payoff amounts.) Was it in writing, : or verbal, or online, or on a phone message? : Do you have a copy or can you get one? : #3 - When you say that the company 'handling the loan' is a : Collection Agency, that could be a potential reason for : the add-on fees (if they are infact add-ons) and it's : entirely possible that there might be some bogus fees involved. : But you don't know that yet. : #4 - Did they actually send you a copy of Page 3 of the payoff : letter, or did they just tell you about it? : If they sent it, what does it say? : Does it have markings or letterhead from the lender, : (anotherwords, do you think it's actually from the lender) : or does it look like a document made from the Collection agency? : Does it have your name on it, or the original trustors name on : it, or what? Does it have the property address or the : original loan number on it? Does it break down the payoff : amount into pricipal, interest, late payments, legal fees, etc? : Is there a pre-payment penalty listed? : #5 - Did you ever do a title check on this property? If you know the original mortgage amount, and can estimate how long the property was in foreclosure, the loan amount, etc- you can extrapolate possible payoff. : If you haven't done this, you could ask a Realtor friend to ask their title company to order you a Preliminary Title Report on this property and have it emailed to you. You could also request a copy of the mortgage note and trust deed in question, which would spell out the loan terms (interest rate, etc.) : (FYI: A valued Realtor can typically get these done for free. And, if you don't have any friends who are Realtors - you don't have any friends!) : #6 - Finally, if you can do all this research to confirm that : there is in fact an overcharging on the payoff, or some : other viable legal remedy, then talking to an attorney could well : be worth your while. : At that point, however, I still wouldn't be ready to fork : out $2000 unless I was pretty positive I wouldn't be throwing : good money after bad. : Personally, I'd go through my Pre-Paid Legal Plan first getting feedback from one or more attorneys : who specialize in the various areas of law involved. It's a bit of an art form when you call : in with your requests for consultations to keep things general : and not telling them that there is a specific 'company, person, or individual' involved. This way you can : get more questions answered through the Member Law Firms lawyers and : not have to get referred out to a 'discounter' who is supposed to give you : a free consultation, but won't tell you as much as you want to know until : you sign a retainer agreement. : Granted, it's sort of an art form, to milk the PPL system, : but I've easily been able to get hours of consultation : time with qualified attorneys who really know their : stuff in a particular field, sometimes exceeding : 10 hours in a week, and still only paid the basic $29/mo. : Depending on the particulars of your situation, you may have : legal questions and concerns that an attorney : familiar with foreclosure laws alone may not have all the : answers for. For example - depending on your situation - : you could be getting evicted soon, or need advice on debt collection laws, as well : as foreclosure laws. So why not first get an overview of your : situation by looking at all possible angles in your generic scenario? : If it were me, I would do this PPL step first, and if I determine that : I'm being scrwd and have a case, then I would look for and happily pay for an : expert attorney (not a PPL referral discount attorney - most likely) to protect my : interests and represent me in this matter. : Good luck and please keep us posted. : : Heidi : : : I purchased a junior loan on a home that needed a lot of work. : : The deed is now in my name, and I am living in the home. : : : I sent letter after letter to the agency handling the loan for the lender. Phone calls were not forwarded to the person "handling the loan". Finally they responded with a non answer, they were claiming $100,000 in fees above what was reported as the Sr. Loan at auction. But the collection agency for the defunct morgage lender is insisting I have no rights to see anything but the third page of the payoff notice. : : Both Sr. and Jr. Loan were owned by the same lender, it was an 80/20/0 buy. : : 1. What if anything can go on my credit report? : : 2. What obligation does the lender/collection agency have to me. : : 3. Now that the home is worth about the original value of the 1st. Can I negotiate with them, when they take action, to pay the first at either the initial value of the first or a lower value. : : Did I provide the right information? Are there questions I should have asked? Follow Ups: Re: Very Interested in Knowing Findings Heidi 9:01 PM, 05/07/08 (1) Re: Very Interested in Knowing Findings Mark H. 5:33 AM, 05/08/08 (0) Post a Followup: Name : E-Mail : Subject : Comments: : Heidi, : This whole issue is damned vexing, especially as I thought that the owner of a foreclosed second has the right to pay off the first deed of trust and retain the property. As I thought I would be bidding on a second deed of trust in foreclosure tomorrow (the first is not in foreclosure) I THOUGHT I'd buy the second, take possession, and pay off the first in full. Is that NOT the rule? : : : Dan, : : Before you spend up to $2000 on an attorney, perhaps the board can help you understand your situation better and maybe help you identify the correct lists of questions for your attorney. : : I for one am confused about several aspects of your situation (and the post-auction foreclosure process.) : : #1 - Even if you have a deed in your name, it's not clear title. : : Thus the mere existence of a senior lien implies that you don't have full ownership. : : (I'm sure you are aware of this, Dan) : : Still, I've never fully understood how the senior lien holders typically react : : to a junior lien getting purchased at auction. : : Doesn't the senior lender(s) 'typically' proceed with their foreclosure (which is usually not far in the timeline behind a junior forelcosing lien) and : : when you or someone else doesn't show up at the auction with enough cash to purchase at the opening bid amount (or more if there is competition) then the property is now : : 'owned' by the lender (back to bene - REO) and anyone living in the house is evicted? : : If that were the case, wouldn't the lender already own this property - given the time that has elapsed since you bought the property? : : Anotherwords, Dan, did the lender ever complete their foreclosure, and if not - what stage is it in? : : If the Senior already owns the property, it's possible that the 100K extra could be their desired price they want and have nothing to do with actual payoff amounts. : : But that doesn't make sense if your dealing with a collection agency and not an REO department. : : So, it appears that the lender hasn't foreclosed yet. : : If that's the case, what exactly has been happening between you and the senior lien holder all this time? : : : : It seems logical that a senior lien holder upon receiving : : notification of the sale of a junior lien at a trustee sale : : would immediately notify the junior of the payoff : : amount required and a timeline for payment to avoid foreclosure. : : Yet you say the house needed alot of work and that : : you've moved in. : : Therefore, I can only assume several months have gone by and : : I don't understand why it looks like you've had such a hard time : : getting them to tell you their payoff amount. : : Dan, it sounds like you've had to make all the calls on : : this one, so far, and that the lender did not make any effort : : to contact you. Is that correct? : : %% To the board members purchasing juniors at auctions: : : What's been your experience in this regard? : : Do senior lien holders contact you, or do you have to : : pull teeth to find out how much they need to stop : : them from foreclosing on you? %% : : : : #2 - When you say the 'amount reported as the Sr. Loan at auction' : : was $100K less then the payoff amount they are telling you now, : : do you know if that amount stated represented a the full payoff : : at that time, or could it have possibly been the amount the lender : : would list for their 'minimum opening bid.' : : Minimum opening bid could be far less then amount actually owed, but usually isn't known until : : moments before the senior lien actually goes to sale. : : I'm asking this because it's possible that the amount you saw, : : may have not been the actual payoff. : : Just to be clear, also, how exactly was the amount for the : : senior loan REPORTED (at what I assume is your junior auction? : : If it was reported at the seniors' auction, then it's a little : : too late to worry about payoff amounts.) Was it in writing, : : or verbal, or online, or on a phone message? : : Do you have a copy or can you get one? : : #3 - When you say that the company 'handling the loan' is a : : Collection Agency, that could be a potential reason for : : the add-on fees (if they are infact add-ons) and it's : : entirely possible that there might be some bogus fees involved. : : But you don't know that yet. : : #4 - Did they actually send you a copy of Page 3 of the payoff : : letter, or did they just tell you about it? : : If they sent it, what does it say? : : Does it have markings or letterhead from the lender, : : (anotherwords, do you think it's actually from the lender) : : or does it look like a document made from the Collection agency? : : Does it have your name on it, or the original trustors name on : : it, or what? Does it have the property address or the : : original loan number on it? Does it break down the payoff : : amount into pricipal, interest, late payments, legal fees, etc? : : Is there a pre-payment penalty listed? : : #5 - Did you ever do a title check on this property? If you know the original mortgage amount, and can estimate how long the property was in foreclosure, the loan amount, etc- you can extrapolate possible payoff. : : If you haven't done this, you could ask a Realtor friend to ask their title company to order you a Preliminary Title Report on this property and have it emailed to you. You could also request a copy of the mortgage note and trust deed in question, which would spell out the loan terms (interest rate, etc.) : : (FYI: A valued Realtor can typically get these done for free. And, if you don't have any friends who are Realtors - you don't have any friends!) : : #6 - Finally, if you can do all this research to confirm that : : there is in fact an overcharging on the payoff, or some : : other viable legal remedy, then talking to an attorney could well : : be worth your while. : : At that point, however, I still wouldn't be ready to fork : : out $2000 unless I was pretty positive I wouldn't be throwing : : good money after bad. : : Personally, I'd go through my Pre-Paid Legal Plan first getting feedback from one or more attorneys : : who specialize in the various areas of law involved. It's a bit of an art form when you call : : in with your requests for consultations to keep things general : : and not telling them that there is a specific 'company, person, or individual' involved. This way you can : : get more questions answered through the Member Law Firms lawyers and : : not have to get referred out to a 'discounter' who is supposed to give you : : a free consultation, but won't tell you as much as you want to know until : : you sign a retainer agreement. : : Granted, it's sort of an art form, to milk the PPL system, : : but I've easily been able to get hours of consultation : : time with qualified attorneys who really know their : : stuff in a particular field, sometimes exceeding : : 10 hours in a week, and still only paid the basic $29/mo. : : Depending on the particulars of your situation, you may have : : legal questions and concerns that an attorney : : familiar with foreclosure laws alone may not have all the : : answers for. For example - depending on your situation - : : you could be getting evicted soon, or need advice on debt collection laws, as well : : as foreclosure laws. So why not first get an overview of your : : situation by looking at all possible angles in your generic scenario? : : If it were me, I would do this PPL step first, and if I determine that : : I'm being scrwd and have a case, then I would look for and happily pay for an : : expert attorney (not a PPL referral discount attorney - most likely) to protect my : : interests and represent me in this matter. : : Good luck and please keep us posted. : : : : Heidi : : : : : I purchased a junior loan on a home that needed a lot of work. : : : The deed is now in my name, and I am living in the home. : : : : : I sent letter after letter to the agency handling the loan for the lender. Phone calls were not forwarded to the person "handling the loan". Finally they responded with a non answer, they were claiming $100,000 in fees above what was reported as the Sr. Loan at auction. But the collection agency for the defunct morgage lender is insisting I have no rights to see anything but the third page of the payoff notice. : : : Both Sr. and Jr. Loan were owned by the same lender, it was an 80/20/0 buy. : : : 1. What if anything can go on my credit report? : : : 2. What obligation does the lender/collection agency have to me. : : : 3. Now that the home is worth about the original value of the 1st. Can I negotiate with them, when they take action, to pay the first at either the initial value of the first or a lower value. : : : Did I provide the right information? Are there questions I should have asked? [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Forum Board ] [ FAQ ] WWWAdmin 2.0a © 1997 Matt Wright and DBasics Software Company, All Rights Reserved

Information provided by this website is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional advice. Please consult your investment advisor and/or attorney before entering into any transaction. Read our privacy policy.

Copyright © 1997-2008, InnoVest Resource Management
http://www.foreclosureforum.com

InnoVest Resource Management, 4569-A Mission Gorge Place, San Diego CA 92120-4112
(619) 283-5444, Fax (619) 283-5455